When parenting doesn't go as planned

In this episode of the #8 ranked stress podcast, I interview author Deborah Covell Fletcher about her experience raising twins. One of her daughters has severe disabilities and her other daughter dealt with bullying. With her characteristic humor and gentleness, Deb guides us through how she dealt with the emotions of those moments and the ways she transformed sadness into advocacy for herself an her children. Her stories are especially poignant for parents who feel like life isn't meeting their expectations. In Deb you'll find an ally as you figure out how to accept challenges while growing through them.

Deborah Covell Fletcher  is an adult educator, speaker, and mom of twin daughters. She also works  as a realtor, which helps to support her obsession with snooping  through other people’s homes.  As a busy mom and advocate for her daughter who lives with multiple disabilities, Deb found the time to jot down stories, lessons learned, and inadvertent  observations - most of which found their way into “Finding Your Hey”. In Deb’s free time she gardens, dances like everyone’s watching, and chases the ice cream truck down the street. You can find her at www.deborahcovell.com, or on Instagram @deborahlcovell

Lindsay Miller is a kids mindfulness coach, mindfulness educator and host of The Stress Nanny Podcast. She is known for her suitcase tricks and playful laugh. When she's not playing catch with her daughter or rollerblading on local trails with her husband, you can find her using her 20+ years of child development study and mindfulness certification to dream up new ways to get kids excited about deep breathing. Having been featured on numerous podcasts, platforms and publications, Lindsay’s words of wisdom are high impact and leave a lasting impression wherever she goes. To download Lindsay’s Mindfulness At Any Age Guide click here. To rate the podcast click here. Thanks for listening!

Lindsay Miller is a distinguished kids mindfulness coach, mindfulness educator and host of The Stress Nanny Podcast. She is known for her suitcase tricks and playful laugh. When she's not playing catch with her daughter or rollerblading on local trails with her husband, you can find her using her 20+ years of child development study and mindfulness certification to dream up new ways to get kids excited about deep breathing. Having been featured on numerous podcasts, platforms and publications, Lindsay’s words of wisdom are high impact and leave a lasting impression wherever she goes. To sign up for Lindsay's "Calm & Collected" Newsletter click here.

Transcript

Lindsay Miller  0:07  
You're listening to The Stress Nanny podcast, and I'm your host, Lindsay Miller. I'm here to help you keep an eye on your family stress levels. In our fast paced lives, the ability to manage stress has never been more important for kids or adults. When it comes to stress, we have two choices, we can decrease stress or increase our resilience to it. Here on the number eight ranked stress podcast, I interview experts and share insights to help you do both. When you tune in each week, you'll bring your stress levels down and your resilience up so that stress doesn't get in the way of you living your best life. I'm so glad you're here. 

Hey there! this is Lindsay. Thanks so much for joining me for this episode of The Stress Nanny podcast, where we help you and your family keep an eye on stress levels. I am excited to share this episode today with you, Deborah Fletcher and I had such a powerful conversation about how to handle life when parenting doesn't go according to plan. You're going to hear more of her story and a lot of you are familiar with my story around parenting. And I think that the one of the main takeaways from this conversation is just like the gentleness that we need to have with ourselves when life isn't meeting our expectations. And I think there's such a strong tendency because we're human to like dig in and kind of blame ourselves and demand more of ourselves. And I hope after listening that you just feel the kind of gentleness that Deborah offers and that I tried to offer in this space regularly. Because that's the kind of gentleness that allows for some of these insights and these changes and mindset shifts to come about. It's hard to do any of it without the gentleness. So without further ado, on to the episode. 

Welcome to The Stress Nanny podcast. I'm your host Lindsay Miller and I'm delighted that you're here for my conversation today with Deborah Covell Fletcher, she's an adult educator, speaker and mom of twin daughters. She also works as a realtor which helps her which helps to support her obsession with snooping through other people's homes, which I love. As a busy mom and advocate for her daughter who lives with multiple disabilities. Deb found the time to jot down stories, lessons learned and inadvertent observations, most of which found their way into finding your Hey, in Deb's free time, she gardens dances like everyone's watching and chases the ice cream truck down the street. Deb, thanks so much for joining me today.

Deborah Covell Fletcher  2:32  
Thanks for having me.

Lindsay Miller  2:35  
We're gonna kind of run the gamut when it comes to conversation topics, because there were so many fascinating things about Deborah story. So we're gonna speak to several of them. But ultimately, I think this conversation is going to be about resilience. Would you agree?

Deborah Covell Fletcher  2:50  
I think so. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller  2:53  
So one of the things that we were talking about before we got started was this idea that a lot of times our expectations around life don't match up to reality. And that can be true in any stage of life. But it can be an especially poignant experience during the parenting years, right? Yes, absolutely. So give me a few examples. I know from your, from your own story about maybe when things didn't match up to how you thought they would be, and kind of how you navigate those moments.

Deborah Covell Fletcher  3:23  
Well, it's funny, because I started, I started in late in life. So I had my daughters when I was 37. And I did experience miscarriage a few years before that, so I had been pregnant before. But the experience of of having them. I felt like I wanted to be prepared in the sense for the fact that I was having children. So, you know, people would say, oh, my gosh, you know, you're you're having baby, it's going to be so wonderful. And I remember thinking to myself, You know what, I want to put this into perspective. Yes, I'm having a baby, but I'm also having a person. And, you know, I'm, they're not going to be babies forever. And I did, I wanted to put it in perspective, because I thought, you know, like, it's, it's this, you know, touted to be this magical, wonderful experience. And I wanted to sort of get into that headspace where, you know, it may not always be so wonderful and I, I sort of projected out, you know, to when they were 15 You know, running out of the house and you know, swearing at me and yeah, I don't know, I just I wanted to do that real estate. Right. So just to be a little bit prepared, and unfortunately, there was no amount of preparation that I could have done. First of all, I was having twins with bleach shot. complete shock. identical twins apparently can happen to anyone. So it's not hereditary. So it was just and I thought I was carrying a boy, too. So because my, my he's now my ex husband, but my husband at the time, he had two brothers, his brother had four sons. So I'm okay, this is it. I'm kidding. Oh, so I was talking to him and force. So I was calling him Billy Bob, I was like talking to him. And hey, Billy, Bob, let's go get some ice cream today and rubbing my tummy. And then, you know, I have the first ultrasound and, and the, the technologist said, did your doctor say anything about twins? And I said, No. And she said, Well, there are two in there. And then I said, Okay, what are they? Because I just felt like, I wouldn't have wanted to know if it was just one. But if there were two, I thought, yeah, I need a bit to be a bit more prepared. And she said, it's two girls. So I was I'd been talking to Billy Bob told them, I told them when they were able to older I said, you know, I thought you were a boy. And I said, I was always talking to Billy Bob, I said, you must have been looking around and said, Who she talking to? is crazy lady. So

Lindsay Miller  6:13  
we already know something's not going to be great.

Deborah Covell Fletcher  6:15  
Right? So exactly. This is our mother.

Lindsay Miller  6:22  
I say that with all the respect that I have for us. Again, just because I can relate to that, yeah, plenty of those moments where I'm like, and I'm gonna do this with you. And we're gonna do this. And then just

Deborah Covell Fletcher  6:35  
inherently, I have no, you know, maternal intuition whatsoever. So we had these little girls and they said, when they're still in utero, they said, now we have to keep an eye on them because they're so the egg. The one egg that I used up, I'm very efficient, it separated later than it should have, which means that so they were still they were joined by blood vessels. And if the egg separates even later, then of course, you've got conjoined twins. So mine, they had to keep checking them because one was pushing blood to the other one and was essentially like, pumping her up and enlarging her. So, one, so So I went into labor when I was 30 weeks, and one was 313, three pounds, 13 ounces. And the other one was only two pounds, seven ounces. And they're identical twins. So so we were of course very worried about the little one and she was like one of those, you know, the typical, like really scrawny ugly preemies that are you know, they look like a little baby bird. I mean, she wasn't ugly to me, but I'm just saying. So one of them was like that. The really tiny one. And then the other one looked like a regular chubby baby only like miniature. So it was kind of this weird. So we were mostly worried obviously about the tiny one. And it ended up that the larger one Quinn, she is the one with all of the disabilities. So it happened during the birth and so she has cerebral palsy. And you know, nothing could have prepared us we even when I went into labor early at 30 weeks, I thought oh, I just get to meet them sooner. Okay. You know, once they survived the birth, I thought, Oh, that was easy, because it really was like I could have written a white horse. Next day is just I was like, it was nothing. Honestly, they were so tiny. So, so we were ecstatic me that this is hilarious. We've got these two little girls and they're gonna be running around and we're not gonna be able to tell them apart. And, and, you know, you, you you. I mean, it's exciting. It's a wonderful time. And then we found out when they were three and a half weeks old actually that Quinn had damage on her brain because they do ultrasounds on preemies for anybody out there that has preemies, they do ultrasounds on their brains and where I live anyway. And so they did one right away and it didn't show anything. And then they they did another one it three and a half weeks. And that showed the cysts on her brain. So they said she's got brain damage in the area of motor development. So I thought, oh, no, she's gonna walk with a limp. This is tragic. And so we were devastated. And then we actually didn't find out how disabled she would be until much later. So it was kind of it came in stages. And I called it the grief that keeps on giving because we, you know, we just would find out something terrible and then two years later find out something even more terrible and then it just went on from there. So the fact is, she's extremely disabled, meaning that she has no finer gross motor skills. She is in a wheelchair her, she's nonverbal. She's incontinent, they're now 23 years old. And she eats only through a G tube in her stomach. And she's also pure joy and, you know, wonderful and, and lots of fun and everything else. So the grief that came was, it was a many things. I mean, it was grief for her. But it was also grief for her sister. And then part of it was grief for me, you know, in that fact that my expectations hadn't been met. And I think that, you know, any one of us could have a child who has a diagnosis of some sort, even if it's, even if it's something as extreme as mine, or we've got everything else that that our children are diagnosed with. And so I've seen mom's that, you know, once we receive that diagnosis, we go into that moment, bear mode. And, and, but, but we have a lot, there's a lot to deal with, too, there's a lot of that disappointment, and I call that grief, because that's what disappointment is grieving the, the, you know, the environment that we thought we'd be in, and we're not in that environment, you know, whether our kid has learning disabilities, or what have you,

Lindsay Miller  11:22  
thanks for sharing your story. It's, it's so powerful and poignant. And I've likewise heard grief described as a love with no place to go. And I think that they're right, there's something really powerful about that, because it's like, once we, because we have an expectation, right, we're like, gonna send our love to this space, we're gonna send our love to this particular person who is going to be this particular way, right? Like, we have it kind of set. And I think there's so much beauty that can come when we recognize, like, you know, if it is if it is in terms of an expectation, that we can shift that love into reality, right, and like, when expectation doesn't match reality, we still get to choose, it's not like when, you know, when, when we're someone is passed on, you know, it is love with no place to go, right, we honor the memory, and we take that love and make meaning with it. But in terms of expectation, I think like we do we make plans, right, and it's so normal, like you said, to have these anticipations to, you know, people are telling you things, and for many, many people, you know, the experience goes a certain way. And it's just, you know, it is as expected, you know, and then circumstances arrive later that are maybe unexpected, or kids change, or you know, things happen. But I think in the realm of expectation, it's so powerful to let to give space for like an expectation that's not met and to grieve it, and then to recognize that we can shift that love into a different a different space and let it you know, allow what's going on two, to fill us up in a different way, like acknowledging that it's not what we thought it would look.

Deborah Covell Fletcher  13:08  
Right, I agree completely. And there's the flip side of that, which is there's that that part of you that wants to blame something and there's nobody to blame. And, and that, you know, that eventually, I think can really do some damage. You know, and I remember early on, when I would think to myself, Why me why her? And eventually, I just started talking to myself about that in my head, maybe a little bit out loud. And I just, you know, sort of said one day, well, why not me? Why not her? I mean, it is pretty random. You know, in this world. I mean, you know, you can you can talk karma and everything else. But there are a lot of things that happen, that are just random. And you know, good things happen to good people. Bad things happen to bad people, but bad things happen to good people too, and good things happen to bad people. So there's no really no real rhyme or reason. So once you sort of understand that in, in just its most basic terms that you know, the life isn't fair, nothing's meant to be fair. And and it's just about how we respond. You know how there's that saying? It's not the rain that spoils your picnic, it's how you respond to the rain. And so it's kind of like that in terms of parenting. It's it's letting go of those expectations of what you thought being a mom with B. And you know, I ended up not being part of of this regular kid kind of club I'm I'm part of the special She'll needs mom's club, and not something that I would have chosen. But I have found wonderful. Community and, and, and purpose and joy and happiness and everything else and pride. No I, my daughter, so she's 23. They're both 23. And we were at a, at an appointment two weeks ago, her dad and I, with her, and it was a communication appointment. So she uses a communication device. And we were, we were meeting with a new team, we've been on a waiting list for two years. And it was kind of like, they wanted to see what she could do with it, they had seen the actual device itself and how it was set up. So they want to see how she used it. And they were very impressed. And he I just kept looking at each other with love and pride, which probably confused them because they knew we were divorced, but our love and pride, you know, because we're looking at it was our love was for her. But you know, how you and and your partner just tend to you. I mean, it's just that, that absolute, we could not literally be prouder of her than if she was an Olympic athlete. Like we were just, you know, and, and a couple of the things that she was doing, they they were amazed with, or they thought were funny, or anyway, you just have those moments despite, you know, your your child's ability or or you know what you thought that they could or or should be able to do, right?

Lindsay Miller  16:41  
Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that is making me tear up. I think that in the scheme of parenting, like the grand scheme of parenting, there are so many moments that invite us to appreciate small victories, but perhaps none more so than when our expectations haven't been met?

Deborah Covell Fletcher  17:02  
I think so. I think so I think that the disappointment, right really lays that foundation for when something great happens, it becomes even more momentous, you know, it's even more celebrated. And I think that, you know, not that we want to go through life having really low expectations. That's really not the way to do it. But, you know, um, I think that having this healthy way of viewing yourself in relation to your expectations, and keeping it that small, you know, because, of course, in prior generations, they didn't, they didn't compare their lives, they didn't compare their children's achievements, like the generations do now. And they were, I think, a lot healthier for it. So part of it, I think, is that, you know, with social media, and just, you know, kids are everywhere, like when I was growing up, there were the we didn't go to restaurants, you know, we just were sort of, because I'm older, and we're sort of, you know, seen but not heard kind of that generation. And so now kids are just, it's, everything is so centered, you know, and I always joke that when I was growing up, my parents didn't have the baby on board symbol. They had the three of us in the backseat with no seatbelts on, no car, no car seats, windows rolled up while they both smoked. So there was no baby on board sample, right? Like it was just so. So we were now on this very child centric society. And, you know, social media exacerbates that because we've got, you know, some moms who, who, who like to celebrate their children, and rightly so, which may make other moms feel lesser than so we've always got this choice whether to, to engage and whether to look and whether to seek out that kind of comparison. And I know that I learned this lesson really early on, and I talked about it all the time, but but it was just it was profound for me. So when my girls were really young, if I saw a healthy set of twins, it was just excruciating for me, and I would I saw I live in an area where there's it's a neighborhood that has a lot of a lot of kids, a lot of families so I would walk down the street with my double stroller. And if I saw a double stroller approaching me, I would always look you know, and sometimes, probably most of the time it was siblings like a one year old and a three year old. But sometimes it was twins. And if I saw said twins, I would position this imaginary knife at my chest, right? If it was girl twins, I would push that knife. And if it was identical girl twins, which is rare, I would just plunge that knife right in, right. And the it was just excruciating ly painful. And I did this to myself as we do. We tend to do these things to ourselves, right. And then one day there are maybe two or three years old, I don't remember I was walking down the street, pushing the double stroller and I saw a double stroller probe approaching from the other direction. And this voice inside my head said just don't look. And it was my voice, obviously. And so I didn't look, I didn't look at the stroller. And I remember smiling, and kind of laughing to myself, there was no pain. There was no comparison, there was no pain. And so I realized that I that I have the choice, I've always had the choice, you know? And we all do, we all have the choice whether to focus on something that could cause us to feel pain, or to not and it's not, you know, it's not denial, it's just we can we can choose where to focus our thoughts. And I remember when my girls were about me, but nine, nine or 10. And it took me a long time to recognize that her sister was what's disabled. I mean, it's pretty obvious to everyone else. But but but she didn't know any better right here. Hey, we're twins. And they're identical twins. And, and. And so it took her a while to realize, oh, okay, she was supposed to be like me, you know, and which is lovely. But when she was about nine or 10, she started noticing that people would stare at her sister. And so she would give them the most evil, evil evil look, you know, to, to send the message of, you know, stop staring at my sister cafe. Yeah. And, and I thought, You know what, that's not good for her. And it's not, it's not really healthy for her. And it's not healthy for the people that she's just sending these daggers to? Who could, you know, we're probably mostly innocent people, right? They just so I said to her, you know, I noticed that when we walk into a room or a new space, or go to the mall, or something that you look around in you check to see if anyone's staring at your sister. And if they are, then you, you know, you give them the look. And I said, so here's the thing, you've got a choice. I said, you could choose to not look. I said you could also choose to think that if they are looking at her, maybe they're just thinking, Oh, what a pretty smile she has or, you know, like, it doesn't have to be something negative, that you're making this assumption that people are looking at her. And staring had her in a negative way. And, you know, wishing her ill or whatever it is. And I noticed that over time, she, you know, probably wasn't right away. But she, she eventually, like internalize that and recognize that. And I was a I was a lot older than her when I when I taught myself that. I'm like three decades older, but But you know, it really sort of, and it's something that for her I think is a bit of a life lesson in that, you know, in any part of your life, you can choose whether to to focus on something that could cause you pain, or, or not.

Lindsay Miller  24:08  
Yeah, yeah. Those are really powerful stories. Thank you for sharing them. I think that it's so beautiful, to be able to refocus. Like you're saying, like, there's so much that changes and shifts. And I know in my own space, that story that came to mind while you were talking was a moment when I have one daughter and I thought that I would have many, many children like scurrying around my home and that wasn't the case. And one time I was sitting in church and I looked around, you know, as I frequently did at church, at the pews full of families, you know, kids and just like moms tearing their hair out because their kids were being rowdy in church and I was like, If only my bench was rowdy, you know? No, I'm

Deborah Covell Fletcher  24:59  
No, exactly.

Lindsay Miller  25:01  
It I remember thinking in that moment, like, again, like you said, that voice came to me and it was my own voice. And it was like, Lindsey, they don't have to be yours for you to love them. Yeah. And I was like, good call, you know, I mean, it was settling. You know, it was a little frustrating still, because I'm like, well, it's easier. i That's how I wanted it or, you know, it takes time sometimes to settle into the wisdom that comes to us. But I think that there's so much beauty that can come when we can, like, clear the slate and like, let the expectations that we had go. And like you said, it's not to say that we don't have any expectations for life in general. But when we have those specific ones, and we're just having like this rule fight with ourselves to just acknowledge what is that taking the chance to reframe, like you said, and like, I don't actually have to look at the thing that's causing me intense pain as I walked down the street with my cute girls in my stroller, like, I don't have to do that. But, you know, we all as humans have tendencies to to like kind of cling, right, we want to hang on to those expectations we had, because it seems like something of a lifeline. It's like the familiar or the thing, you know, that was going to be comfortable, or the thing that we knew how to work with. And the thing that we're facing is often much more challenging, and much more like disruptive than the, you know, the thing we had planned on. And yeah, and yet, like you said, we're with you and your daughter, like the ramifications of learning that skill, as challenging as it was and is to practice it. Like it has an impact in so many other ways, right? Like if we, if life invites us and for you, it was a very significant expectation. For some, for some people listening, it may be a minor expectation. But if life invites us to, like drop an expectation and kind of clear the slate, trusting that and then like allowing that space so that we can refocus. It's just so powerful.

Deborah Covell Fletcher  27:02  
It really is. And, you know, it's funny that the way that we're set up as human beings is that we get attached to the pain as well, you know, so you said we're, we get attached to that expectation, which is absolutely right. And we also get attached to that pain. So that was very comfortable pain for me, as well. You know, it's like when you have a sore tooth, and you keep poking it with your time. And if it's suddenly not sore anymore, you're like, Well, where did it go, you know, it's just like you expected, you need it almost. And so, we do get very attached to that. And it is about you know, detaching, and and changing your focus. And I know that for some moms, it really does help to focus on advocacy. And, again, no matter what that what the, you know, the unmet expectation is whether it's our child is being bullied or they have a disability, or they have some other you know, experience in the, in the school system where we can put our focus and our energy in our and our, our feeling of, of doing something to help, you know, it's that that's, it's the feeling of helplessness, I think that that really goes against everything that our I guess our instincts as moms, you know, and I remember when when Quinn was a baby, and I'd hold her on my chest, and I would, I would kiss the top of her head, you know, because I was, it was like, it was like kissing a little scrape on a knee, you know, I wanted to kiss her brain and make it better, you know, that, that. So that feeling. And I think that through whatever advocacy we do, we can't always make it better. But we can make a difference, you know, even when, when it the difference isn't going to help our child. Do you know what I mean? So, you know, if we lose a child, or if we, we lose someone else in our in our life, and then we focus on that, that, you know, charity or cause or whatever it is, I think that that's that as human beings that helps us to put that love that you were talking about and put it somewhere and put all of that emotion into the work that we can do. And that for me really helped. I was not an advocate. Up to that point in my life. I didn't really, you know, I mean, we all contribute to charities and we all do you know, it's just sort of part sort of who we are and where we're spending our time and money and that sort of thing. But I've never really focused on on a true, one particular cause and advocated like I did when my daughter was in school. And so I became an advocate for kids with special needs within our school system. And our school system, where I am, it's the second largest school board in North America. And so it was like, turning the Titanic in terms of get hit to shift direction. But I sat on a, on an advisory board for special education for six years, which was both frustrating and rewarding. equal amounts about but I started with just advocating on behalf of my own daughter, and then grew to this role where I was advocating on behalf of all kids with special needs of any type. And so that selfishly helped me, as well, as you know, all of the children that I would have, you know, hopefully helped along the way. But it also really gave me a place to feel like I was making a difference, you know, because it's that that feeling of helplessness that had to be overcome.

Lindsay Miller  31:26  
Yeah. Yeah. And I, I can really appreciate how challenging it is to sit in helplessness, right? It's, again, this idea that, like, you have to acknowledge what you're in before you can move through it. And I think I've always said, I'm allergic to helplessness, like I run away from it, I try to, like, if I can get away from it, I get away as fast as I can. But there's power in transforming it into meaningful action, right. And I think that's what you're describing is, instead of kind of pushing the feeling away, like, allowing and embracing, like, Okay, I didn't expect mothering to feel like a whole lot of helplessness to me. But that's exactly what it feels like. And I am going to channel, the energy that I have around that, like, I'm gonna acknowledge it, and then I'm going to channel the action that I want to be taking into a way that I can take action. And I love that your story. Your story speaks to that. And I know, you mentioned the bullying, will you touch on that, because I'm sure there are listeners right now who, you know, have kids who are experiencing bullying. And that can feel like a whole other avenue of helplessness and unmet expectations when we have a kid who's experiencing that.

Deborah Covell Fletcher  32:42  
It really is. And so the irony, of course, is that it wasn't when my daughter with disabilities who was bullied, it was my other daughter, who was bullied. And it was almost like, the kids at school, knew they couldn't, they couldn't pick on, you know, the kid in the wheelchair. And so they picked on the other one, and which is tragic. So she so they both went to a little, a very small elementary school, where it went from kindergarten to grade eight, which, which here is that's a long time. And then high school was was after that. And it was very small. So they were in the same group. The same class was only 2020 children. And they went the same 20 children from kindergarten to grade eight, from junior kindergarten to grade eight. And so there was with my, my daughters were an Emma was friends with this one little girl from junior kindergarten to grade three, and then that little girl went to a different school after that, and so it was I think it was the grade four year where all the other girls in the class decided to completely ostracize her. And so she and nobody told me nobody at the school told me until one of the moms actually said to me, about halfway through the school year at you need to know something she said, Emma spends every lunch and every recess alone. And the girls don't, you know, and and they just said mean things to her and stuff. And it was mostly the the ostracization, and then they would you know, they would have a birthday party and invite everybody but her and then of course talk about it on Monday because it was so much fun and all of that stuff, right. And so, it is devastating. As you know, all of all of you know the the times that your child is, is bullied or is met with hardship is just absolutely tragic. And so all I could do because I couldn't go to the school and and beat them all up. Of course, all I could do was try and help her. And I mean, it was it was, I don't know, you know, I can't don't even have the words, obviously, it was so challenging because it really damaged her self esteem as you could imagine. Yeah. And I remember saying to her, and trying to teach her that it was just this moment in time, you know, and as adults, we have that perspective, like grade four, I don't even remember anything about it. But you know, that for her, it was everything. So, I mean, we just talked to her about, about who she was, and, and who they were, and talked to her about the fact that it wouldn't always be this way. And it was just really, really challenging. And even when she she made a friend the next year, that gang of girls still never really accepted her. And, and that carried on into high school. And so there was a Family Guy episode, where Peter goes back to high school. I know, it's such an irreverent show, but he goes back to high school, and he's, it's kind of like a take on the Breakfast Club movie. And he's playing the guitar at one point. And the song is High School Matters, because of course, high school doesn't matter, right? And so her dad, and I referenced that for her, you know, the fact that high school doesn't matter, and you will find your tribe, and you will, you know, and we just just sort of handled it in that way in that kind of, this doesn't really matter, you know, they don't matter what other people think of you doesn't matter. What matters is what you think of yourself. And coming back to that, you know, what are you going to focus your thoughts on is just absolutely traumatizing for a parent. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller  37:36  
Yeah. Well, and I can appreciate I'm sure anyone listening also who has a child with special needs, and then has other children, you know, that can appreciate this story on another level, because there's there was probably a whole other layer of that for you. That was like, Why didn't she tell me? Like, you know, here I am busy taking care of her sister like, and, you know, this, it wasn't on my radar, I mean, no, no guilt or fault there, right. But it's just like, in the natural course of having a child who just requires additional care and attention. Some other things. Sometimes our kids have perceptions around what what parents can handle or how much they can ask for. And I think, you know, you being able to navigate that in the way that you did with communication, you know, and bringing things out into the open, like those skills while so hard to come by, and like you said, heartbreaking and devastating and traumatizing for all parties. Those skills, I'm sure serve you still right, like the communication and the reframing and like the we can we can work through this together. I imagine those things set kind of groundwork for you. And as much as it was a moment where you didn't want to set that groundwork. You found yourself again, like writing a story that you hadn't anticipated.

Deborah Covell Fletcher  38:59  
Yeah, and it's funny, I don't know if if she would have turned out this way anyway. But, but Emma has such a really strong sense of self and self and you know who she is, and she knows herself. She knows who her tribe is, she knows she's not she's not ever going to be the popular girl and she's actually really okay with that. She's, she's the funny girl in all of her, you know, friend groups now she's the one who makes everybody laugh and, and which was a skill that she probably had to develop. And so, it's interesting, she doesn't she, you know, I would say that she has very low expectations of life now, maybe because of growing up with her sister and being bullied. All of that. So she's actually a very, very well grounded, very happy person. Because you know, and she's now in her second year of Teacher's College, she's going to be a special education teacher, which, you know, kind of makes sense. She's very, very comfortable with, with kids with disabilities, and in fact, seeks them out and wants to work with them. So, you know, she is she has, she has found sort of her tribe, as I call it, through meeting other kids like herself, that, that have that kind of, you know, comfort level with kids with disabilities, and just, just in general, you know, she's found people that are that are a lot like her. So, which, you know, in a class of 20, kids, it didn't really work out that way, when it was, you know, 10 girls and 10 boys, and yes, didn't really work out for her. So, it is, it is amazing. I mean, but But it's kind of hard to say that grade four person, just wait till you're 23 you're gonna be so happy, I guess it's like, it seems like that's, that's their world. That's all they know. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller  41:12  
To me, as a parent, did you because it sounds like in those conversations, just as we close, I'm thinking of parents who are listening right now who, you know, are feeling really connected to this experience, either with bullying or expectations. And I'm thinking of your stories about both daughters, where you're taking one to this, the communications appointment, and you're just like, glowing with pride over, you know, the things she's able to do. And then you're thinking of your other daughter, who's made it through some really, really big struggles herself, and looking at both of them and just being really present with where they are as individuals. Now, at the time, even though they couldn't conceptualize that version of themselves. Do you feel like that's the version you were working for, like when you were reframing? Like instead of parenting from a place of fear, and lack and worry. And not to say those weren't part of the story? Because those are just parenting norms. Right. But in your advocacy, to me, what I'm hearing is that you, you could envision this version of them. And so in the moments when it was hard for them to hold space for that vision of them, that the actions you took, were to support their growth to the space there now. Is that fair?

Deborah Covell Fletcher  42:26  
Yeah, I think so. Because I knew who they were. They didn't know it yet. And I think that that's what we do is we facilitate them coming to learn about who they are. And, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's just a bit of a fluke that I was able to give Emma that that lesson at age nine or 10, you know, about about being able to switch your focus, because I don't think I would have thought of that. If I just had two regular kids. You know, I don't think I bet that I don't know. And I think that that, because I was not able to go back to the job that have was a full time job ahead. I ended up having to start my own business because I couldn't do a full time job with all my doctor's appointments and that sort of, so I've gone in a direction that I would never have gone in or expected. And so I think they have to because of that, I mean, it's just so hard because again, you can't really plan it all out. All you can do is do the best with what you let you have.

Lindsay Miller  43:41  
Yeah, yeah, it will. And again, just back to that initial perspective that you shared about expectation that sometimes it and I'm not going to say that the heartache and the tragedy and the traumatizing moments were a gift. But I am going to say that the opportunity to create Beauty from Ashes can can lend itself to experiences that we otherwise wouldn't have, and definitely wouldn't have invited, like you mentioned earlier. But I think knowing either just in our own hearts or like in our interactions with our kids, like there can be beautiful things that come from this. And as hard and as devastating as the moments are. And, you know, with all respect for those ashes, and how heartbreaking it is to sit there and kind of sift through them. When we can burn those expectations to the ground. Maybe we were left with like we're left with the ability to create whatever we want from there and the intention and advocacy that can come as evidenced by your story today is really powerful and inspiring. So thank you so much for for being here and sharing that with us.

Deborah Covell Fletcher  44:56  
Thanks for having me.

Lindsay Miller  44:58  
It's been a pleasure talking to listeners about where they can find you talk about your work.

Deborah Covell Fletcher  45:04  
Well, my, my book is, is called Finding Your hay. And it's really about my sort of journey. It's a part memoir, part self help. So I interviewed four friends who have completely different grief journeys, and then wove the stories and sort of themes and strategies through there. So that is available on Amazon. And my website is deborahcovell.com, which is another way to find me and, and my book.

Lindsay Miller  45:39  
Thank you. And for listeners, it's H E Y, hey, like, hey. Well, thank you again, Deborah has been a pleasure to talk with you today. Thank you so much for having me. So again, with all the love in my heart, I just would encourage each of us to kind of reflect on moments or times either now or in our parenting journey prior to this, where things didn't go the way we planned them. Or maybe you're listening, and you don't have kids. And that's the thing that didn't go according to plan. You know, there's just so many variations on that theme of like life, not meeting our expectations. And in so much as we can be compassionate with ourselves and cultivate that gentleness, not blame, you know, and be willing to process the guilt and the frustration and the anger and the sadness that come when life doesn't meet our expectations. When we can do that we allow ourselves to become open to whatever beauty is, is waiting for us on the other side. So I hope this conversation has given you a glimpse into that process. And I'd love to hear more about what it looks like for you, you can always email and reach out and thanks again, for listening. 

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