The Stress Nanny with Lindsay Miller

Ep 193: How Mindfulness & Psychodynamic Therapy Can Help You Break Free from Narcissistic Patterns That Destroy Relationships

• Lindsay Miller • Season 11 • Episode 193

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The glow of “perfect together” can hide a much harsher truth. We sit down with narcissism specialist Dr. Anthony Mazzella to unpack how the illusion of blissful union forms, why ordinary differences feel like threats, and what actually changes when you stop outsourcing your worth. From a psychodynamic perspective, we trace the arc from early unmet needs to adult relationships that demand constant validation, then explore the real cost of leaving: grief for the fantasy, and the devaluing voices you carry after the breakup.

We get practical fast. You’ll hear how to spot red flags—pressure to be “always positive,” fights over hobbies or time apart, and the panic that turns separation into abandonment. Dr. Mazzella demonstrates “containment,” a therapeutic process that pairs validation with mindful inquiry, so you can slow reactivity, notice discomfort, and choose differently in the moment. We contrast projection with mentalization, show how integration of self reduces idealize–devalue cycles, and share simple repair scripts and redo language to stabilize daily interactions.

Parenting patterns take center stage too. We map how a history of domination and powerlessness can resurface as rigid control of a child, and how mindful boundaries protect connection without shutting people out. Along the way, we challenge the myth that change is a straight line. Progress happens in moments: one honest pause, one contained feeling, one boundary you keep. If you’re navigating a narcissistic relationship, healing after one, or trying to end a generational cycle, this conversation offers clarity, language, and tools you can use today.

If this resonated, share it with someone who needs it, subscribe for more grounded guidance, and leave a review so others can find the show. Your support helps us grow a community built on calm, courage, and real change.

To listen to the other podcast episode that Dr. Mazzella and Lindsay recorded, check out this episode of the Narcissism Decoder Podcast. 

For more information about Dr. Mazzella’s psychoanalytic affiliations and membership in The International Psychoanalytic Association (IPA) -which is restricted to psychoanalysts who fulfill the most recognized international standards for psychoanalytic training- visit his website.

Lindsay Miller is a distinguished kids mindfulness coach, mindfulness educator and host of The Stress Nanny Podcast. She is known for her suitcase tricks and playful laugh. When she's not cheering on her daughter or rollerblading on local trails with her husband, you can find her using her 20+ years of child development study and mindfulness certification to dream up new ways to get kids excited about deep breathing. Having been featured on numerous podcasts, platforms and publications, Lindsay’s words of wisdom are high impact and leave a lasting impression wherever she goes.

To sign up for Lindsay's "Calm & Collected" Newsletter click here.

To review the podcast click here.

Lindsay Miller:

Welcome to the Stress Nanny, the podcast where we take the overwhelm out of parenting and help kids and parents build calm, confidence, and connection. I'm your host, Lindsay Miller, Kids Mindfulness Coach and Cheerleader for Busy Families Everywhere. Each week we'll explore simple tools, uplifting stories, and practical strategies to help your child learn emotional regulation, resilience, and self-confidence, while giving you a little more peace of mind too. I'm so glad you're here. I am so excited for my conversation today with Dr. Anthony Mazzella. He is a narcissism specialist, and he's going to talk with us about some of the signs and stresses that accompany narcissistic relationships. Anthony, thank you so much for joining me.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Hello, Lindsay. Thank you. I appreciate you having me on your show and giving me this opportunity to share some of my thoughts on what I think you know is a very, very complicated topic, right?

Lindsay Miller:

Yes, for sure. Which is why we're grateful to have an expert.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Well, let me see what I could do. I'm I'm going to try my best. As we get started, let's just go over some basics.

Lindsay Miller:

When somebody's been through a narcissistic relationship, what are some of the emotional or psychological challenges they're left with?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Okay, so if it's okay, I just I want to set a foundation of like what is a narcissistic relationship? But just for your for your listeners, I want to share my bias, which is this is from a psychodynamic perspective. Okay. So from a psychodynamic perspective, a narcissistic relationship primarily exists in what we call an illusion. That's the illusion of togetherness. That's what we call a blissful union, or some people call it codependency. Some other people call it a shared unconscious fantasy. But primarily, if it's really a narcissistic relationship, it's about two people coming together to finally feel like they've been seen, that they've been validated, that they're recognized, that they're being held, all the things that typically go missing earlier in life, things that they missed out on that they're looking to fix in their current relationship. So that's sort of the foundation. But let me just pause just for a moment to see does that even make sense, or is there anything more that I could say about just what is a what is this kind of relationship?

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, no, I I really appreciate that explanation and the way you tethered it to some other things. Let's maybe dive a little deeper just for our listeners and explore how you initially kind of recognize or come to the realization that that like maybe you're using a present relationship to meet past needs.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Okay, so one thing that you'll typically see in these relationships, which is like a red flag, is an intense level of togetherness. In other words, each partner has a hard time letting the other partner exist in their own right. So I don't mean just literal separations, which by the way are always painfully difficult. He wants to go out with his friends, she wants to go on a trip with the girls. It's there's usually a fight around that because togetherness, and not just togetherness, but everything has to be great. Everybody has to always be happy. Why do we have to talk about negative things? Can't you just be more positive? These are all things that one imagines should occur in a relationship, but this is not what makes up a healthy relationship. Togetherness and time alone, one opinion is okay. If the other opinion is different, these are all signs of a very healthy relationship. So those are the red flags. And I mean, there are many more, but the glaring red flag is problems around separation and letting the other person exist in their own right as a separate person with their own opinion that's different than yours. That's the key. If they can't have their own opinion if it's the same as yours, because then that's the blissful togetherness again.

Lindsay Miller:

Okay, yeah, thank you. That was clarifying. So it now let's go like one step further. In that relationship, there is this like blissful togetherness, everything seems great, but then engaging outside of that relationship with other people, there's some friction, right?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, because once you're doing something outside the relationship, again, if there are narcissistic disturbances, it's not just a like a separation, but it's often experienced as an abandonment, like you left me or you rejected me. And for the narcissist or someone who has these characteristics, that's too painfully difficult to tolerate. And that's why there's often a fight around somebody doing something that's different or having a hobby that's separate from. So, yeah. So having a life outside is difficult for another reason as well, which is if you go out and you have fun, what does that mean? What does that say about me? Am I no longer valuable? In other words, I thought I was the most important person. It's like someone who, let's say, has a family and they're a couple of kids, and they need to go away on a business meeting and they start getting anxious about leaving for their business meeting. And I explore that with them because part of what I do in my work with these individuals is I get really close as possible to their subjective experience. And I start to explore this. And what I discover is what if I go away and everybody's fine, the family's fine, and they function without me and they have a good time. See, that means I'm not really that important. I'm kind of irrelevant in the family. And for the person who has these narcissistic traits, they need to feel like the most important thing. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah. No, that's powerful. And then the pull of that on the person in the relationship is so strong that there are limited opportunities, right? To, like you're saying, to have any external experience to kind of alert them to the fact that, like, oh, maybe this isn't how most people do it, or oh, maybe this is different, or oh, like because it's so insular, there are less reference points outside, right?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

To kind of verify what's going on. No, that's a really good point. I didn't even mention that. Is that in general, I you know, I work not just with individuals, but with couples as well. And oftentimes by the time they get to me, their life is very insular. In other words, there's not many rich opportunities that go on outside of either themselves or the family, or maybe a very close circle, but that usually just includes their families. Like, oh, we're always at his family's house, or we're always at with her mother. So yeah, life becomes very limited in that way, which then just feeds into, unfortunately, and becomes a perpetuating cycle of disillusionment.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, yeah. So then let's let's say like post-relationship. Let's say someone is recognized, you know, they've tried to reconcile, trying to work through it, maybe haven't been able to, and have have put some distance in in that relationship, right? And they're now post-relationship trying to kind of figure out how to engage with people from a more healthy or a more autonomous place. What are some of the like leftover remnants of the relationship that are gonna kind of they're gonna have to kind of manage and deal with that? What are those emotional and psychological challenges that are maybe gonna be with them for a bit?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Oh boy, this one is a little complicated. Can I use an analogy just sort of to drive it home to the listeners? So if anybody has known anybody who's been caught up in a scam, right? So these people that get caught up in a scam oftentimes give away their whole life savings, right? And I've heard these stories before, and they have loved ones telling them you are being scammed, right? But they can't hear it because there's this illusion of what fame, power, wealth. There's a big payoff at the end. So for someone to leave a scam, for someone to leave a cult, right, where you're also brainwashed into believing that salvation is just around the corner, right? That all your needs are going to be gratified. For someone to leave a narcissistic relationship, you see, it's the same thing. So to your point, Lindsay, when you leave, now if you leave that illusion behind, which is not easy because you're leaving the hope, the promise of salvation, and all what we call internal propaganda that goes along with it, you know, that life is going to be wonderful once this happens, right? So now you're in reality and you're expected to leave that behind. And that's a big, big loss, right? Because you know, you've had so you just gave away your whole life savings, or you've been with this partner for many years. So that's on one level what makes it very difficult because you're asking someone to step into a painful reality and leave all the internal propaganda behind. So that's one thing, and I'll just mention one other thing that's really hard. So the question is why would you ever leave this relationship if it seems so wonderful and blissful and there's this togetherness, and you have, yeah, maybe you don't have a lot of friends or hobbies, but you do have your family of origin and/or maybe his. But it also comes with intense moments of devaluation as well. Because when there are times when there is separation, and it's inevitable, it's so hard to stay in a narcissistic bubble, just reality always gets in the way. Then you are devalued, or you're devaluing him, and then there's you know a lot of intense fighting, name calling. And when you leave, you're not just giving up something, which is that propaganda that I mentioned, the salvation, but you also take something with you. And I think you know about this, Lindsay. In fact, we spoke about this earlier, right? Is you take the negative voices with you. Like, remember the stream of negativity coming at you. So all the voices of like, you can't make it without me, the only one who will ever put up with you, you know, you don't feel worthy or capable. Could you imagine then trying to start a life with not just the loss that you're asked to deal with, but now what you also bring with you, which are these critical voices. So those are just a few of the most immediate challenges when someone gets out of this kind of relationship. Does that make sense?

Lindsay Miller:

No, I I thank you for the way you described it. And as you were talking, I was thinking and and tethering some of the things you had said. And as Anthony mentioned, we had a conversation about mindfully approaching these types of relationships on his podcast. And I'm gonna we'll talk more about that at the end, and I'm gonna link to it in the show notes. But one of the things that was just like a stark reality when with what you were describing is like with this vision of perfection, this vision of you know, the the the amazingness of this relationship eventually comes. And then you had said, I think if I heard you right, a lot of times the blame for that vision not coming to fruition is the other person. So if the other person is to blame for the demise of the relationship, and then they're also devalued because of all the things said in the relationship, and then they're trying to like bravely step foot into a space where they're all of a sudden confident and competent about making their own choices. I mean, that's such a big leap.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yes, especially because I'll just add one other piece, which I know is always a little controversial, but for people who have a little bit of a more open mind to this, and this is complicated stuff, so I'm not saying this definitively, but oftentimes it's called a shared unconscious fantasy because both people in the relationship are looking to have some sort of need met. And that means that they can't do it internally, so they need those external supplies, they need that constant source of external validation. When her husband just goes in the other room with the kids, the feeling is why would he leave me alone here? Why didn't he invite me into the room with the kids? He's playing with them without me. So then there's that constant need, and I say it's controversial because it's a lot more comfortable and easier, and I hear this quite a bit to say, look at my narcissistically disturbed partner, whatever, husband, wife, mother, whoever it is. And that may be true. I want to emphasize that. It doesn't mean that they're not, but oftentimes there's an interpersonal dynamic that keeps these relationships alive. So now back to your point, Lindsay. So when they leave the relationship, if in fact that is true, what I'm saying is that they do depend on external validation and supplies as well, how can they possibly be in another relationship in a healthy way unless they begin to work this through? Because then once they get in another relationship, they're going to lean on their friend or family member or next partner for the same type of relationship because that's what went missing again in their earlier childhood. And just as a quick aside, I can't tell you how often I hear this. I hear it on social media. And recently I did an interview with a woman and we were talking about this, and she was very honest in sharing that when she left her narcissistic husband, she said my next three relationships were all with people who were pathologically disturbed. Other people say I end up going back to the relationship, even though it's not what I want, pulled back into it. So I'm sorry to make it a little more complicated, but that's another challenge that they face is that that need for something doesn't just go away because they work, you know, they left the relationship. They have to really start to work through it.

Lindsay Miller:

Yes, yeah. No, I'm so glad you pointed that out. One of my dear friends is navigating life post-narcissistic divorce. And she has been doing so much work around just these very things you're saying, right? Around trying to figure out what dynamics, what patterns, what needs she needs to meet for herself in order to connect in a relationship in a more whole way. Yes. And on your show, we we spent quite a bit of time talking about like sitting in the discomfort of those types of moments, right? Like those realizations, those are not easy to stomach.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, that's right. And I'll tell you just something again as an aside, the realization, it's it's such a strange thing because it's so gratifying to watch, like when I work with these patients go through it, even though it's so painfully difficult, it's both heartbreaking but so necessary. So someone like who grows up, like this is like a prototypical example with let's say a narcissistically disturbed or a preoccupied parent who doesn't have the capacity to really be there for them emotionally when they're a child, but gives them a lot of gifts, right? So the way they express love is through gift giving. So now this person grows up not really knowing how to be in a genuine relationship, and they get into you know relationships as an adult and they don't understand why they keep fizzling out and why the woman keeps saying things like you are not emotionally available. And they're like, but I buy you gifts or I take you on trips, and then they begin to realize through the work, you know, as we go through this, that that is not connecting. And in fact, they didn't feel that they were connected at all to their parent because they were never recognized, they were just given gifts. So this is one of the ways that then it interferes with the next relationship. I'm still thinking about what it's like, you know, post-yeah.

Lindsay Miller:

No, I thank you for bringing that up. That's so insightful too, because I think the place where mindfulness can have an impact here is in the moment-to-moment decisions, right? And we've talked about that like your the type of work that you do is the is at the heart of making those changes, right? Of recognizing the patterns, recognizing the needs, understanding how to move forward in a way that helps you meet those needs more autonomously. And then mindfulness is what like is a little toolkit you can use in those small day today moments when you have you know this pull towards something you know isn't gonna support you, and like this tiny spark of bravery pulling you forward into the person that you're trying to become, right? Yes, yep, yep. And and like having having the support and the awareness on that journey is so vital, right?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, and you said brave, you know, and I say like, yes, brave, because it takes a lot of courage. You have to muster up a lot of even just to leave this kind of relationship. Yeah, but I would also say I trust that there's a developmental push in all of us, you know. Oftentimes I hear narcissists don't come for therapy, or why would a narcissist ever come for therapy? And it's true, probably many do not. So I'm biased because I'm talking about the ones who do come, but they know deep inside, oftentimes they know something is wrong. And developmentally, there's always a push that can't be ignored, that they want to do better in life. And oftentimes when there's a severe enough collapse, like leaving this kind or recognizing that this is not a healthy relationship, that they deserve better, that's a developmental push right there. So, hey, let's do something for fun if you don't mind, okay? Because you mentioned mindfulness, yeah, and I'd love to juxtapose it with containment. That's a concept that I use quite frequently. So I'm going to whip up a clinical example. Again, like let's put this, you know, the fellow aside just for a moment whose mother gave him the gifts. This is a person who comes in and tells me about an argument with her husband, right? About child rearing. So I want to get your opinion on this, Lindsay. And you tell me, is this mindfulness? I'm going to tell you what I did. And then you say, Yeah, this is or it's not, or this is how it would look different. So I'm listening to the story about how there's a disagreement. He had a different opinion on how they should rear the child, right? And then she shifts and she starts telling me about what a wonderful weekend they had together. And I point to her, I point out that I've noticed something, and I wonder if she's aware of it as well, that she was telling me about a disagreement and she seemed a little uncomfortable. And then suddenly she shifted, telling me about what a wonderful weekend they had. And if she's like, Yes, I noticed that, like it, it's like a it's a process, by the way, in terms of how I do this, because if there's too much denial, we have to go back and kind of take another pass at it in a different way. But if she's buying into it, I would begin to talk to her about what made her uncomfortable about thinking about a different opinion. You see, there's the difference that comes up in such subtle ways in everyday life, but that's quite devastating. So, what does she do to handle it, to feel better? And this is what I talked to her about. In order to manage the difference, she goes to what a wonderful weekend it was. And some people could go to attacking the other person as well. That's a way to be together too. I know that seems paradoxical, but that is togetherness because now you're in a fight, right? But in any matter, slowing her down and then recognizing the shift to a blissful, right? There's your narcissistic relationship, and why it's important for me to track this, in my mind at least. Would you say, would you call that mindful? I'm just curious. This is where I love to have a little dialogue with you. Would you call that mindfulness, or is that a little different?

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah. No, I would definitely call that mindfulness. Cause again, if we're looking at like what's going on inside of me, what's going on outside of me, and then making a choice on purpose, right? Like if you're noticing the this the distraction or the detour, and then you're bringing attention to like the discomfort, and then she's able to sit in the discomfort, recognize the context, what's going on outside of her that maybe prompted the discomfort, and then work through it with you. Yeah. Yeah, I would say that's a mindful moment. So you call that containment?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, containment because we slow them down, right? And then we develop what's again another fancy word, but it's called mentalization, a capacity to start to reflect on one's own inner state. So the inner state was discomfort, but she didn't know that. I mean, she knew it just briefly. That's why she was close enough that I could bring her back to it. Sometimes it's just too far away and this doesn't work, you know?

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

But yeah, we would call that containment, which is not just sitting there listening to somebody, but it usually starts with validating, you know, if they're dysregulated, like really upset or angry about something, get them into a more regulated state, and then to start to m ask these inquisitive questions to help them begin to develop a capacity for self-reflection, which they could take with them when they leave.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's that's so fascinating too. And I love how granular you got in terms of you know noticing the nuance, like that mindful therapy for sure, right? Yes. In terms of like, is is this within like her ability to tolerate, right? Because I think for for we do that with kids too, right? When we're trying to kind of help them grow through something or trying to navigate something, we're like, is this gonna put them over or are they in a position they could talk this through, right? Like, is this gonna and so I I think that that's such a great awareness in terms of working with a situation where you're seeing something and you're wanting to give the person an opportunity to see it as well, but in a way that they can tolerate.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

And in a way that hopefully, if done, and and I think the best way is that they come to it on their own. Sometimes you have to help them, but again, that's always judging because sometimes with people who do have these narcissistic characteristics, if you come in with a different perspective, you see now I'm just like the husband. You see what I mean? So the goal, I don't know if I captured it in this little tiny vignette that I just gave, but the goal is to try to help them begin to recognize that I moved away or just start to think about what just happened. So rather than saying you felt anxious about separation, I wouldn't say that probably, unless I'm working with somebody and we've already used that language because now I'm just telling them something and I don't really feel confronting. Yeah, yeah, it's confronting because obviously they're avoiding it for a reason. Who am I to go force it back? You know, unless they're just close enough, they're on the precipice of it. Maybe I'll help a little bit, but usually I find it more valuable to ask the questions to see if I can help them get to it.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, which is so skillful, and uh, I love that about your approach, is that it is empowering at its core for a situation that is not at all empowering, right?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because they're feeling so who knows what? That's the whole point. Like, we don't know what they're feeling. So who am I to assume unless we start getting closer to that? Because that's the whole beauty of you know, to go back to what we said before, the illusion of togetherness is not to feel deeply, you know, just it's it's all about just being admired, just being recognized. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller:

What what do you think are some of like the pieces that are missing as people are recovering from relationship? I feel like having having these types of experiences, I could be wrong, but I think in therapeutic settings, like your approach, it is unique and beautiful, right? And and I don't I don't know that that's the experience most people get. Do you feel like working with specialized? Obviously, you do, and I do, but working with the specialized support, it just feels like a different piece of the like empowerment puzzle. So instead of maybe just like dusting the surface of something, you you're able to kind of get in there and help people make those inside out changes that are more lasting.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, we look for something that's called structural change. But if we look at the sort of the underlying theory, and I think you know this too, because again, we spoke earlier and I think you nodded, but with the personality disorders, any of them, there's what's known as a fragmented sense of self, which means you know, you've heard this concept splitting. This is why they're prone to splitting, because they're not able to integrate, something you and I discussed again a little bit earlier. So the ultimate goal after, only after the containment part, which I think now we could call mindfulness, by the way, right? Helping them become more reflective and mindful, because that has to happen first. Then we can move into the deeper work that I think you're you're hinting at right here, which is to begin to integrate one sense of self. What does that even mean? All that means, you know, it's like fancy jargon, but just really simple. It just means that these people, anybody who has a personality disorder, typically has an image of themselves, like with the narcissist, as what? Either grandiose, special, or believe it or not, very weak, needy, clingy. They they all go together, they're all part of the grandiose structure, by the way. So we need to help them begin to integrate these very different self-representations because when they're split, they could feel one way one moment and another way the next, and it makes for a very disintegrated life. But the the other piece is they also project this, as you know. So they don't just see themselves in this way, and they see you this way too. So one minute you're the best, you're amazing, you're wonderful, and the next minute you're not very valuable anymore. So it makes for tumultuous relationships, and that's where these people who have these narcissistic traits typically struggle the most, is in intimate relationships. They can do pretty good at work, by the way. You know, they even rise to high levels of achievement at work. CEOs, lawyers, you know, they really do well, especially if they have a lot of people working under them. That works in their favor.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah. And thank you for thank you for all the different pieces of perspective you just shared. Because I think that there's so much value in recognizing that like these types of moments or traits or tendencies show up in a lot of different places, right? And like you're saying, they may, they, they may be something you're like just having an inkling of, or they may be something you really understand and kind of are identifying with. But along the way, as we can like pick up on different tendencies or work with different tendencies in a mindful way, there's the opportunity to move through some of the work of healing or growing or relating in a more healthy way.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, more a more when and we could be more specific. Like healing, then, in my opinion, in a psychodynamic perspective for personality disorders, is then that integration, developing a more integrated sense of self. When you're more integrated, you project less. When you project less, that means that people in the environment are less angry. We didn't even talk about anger yet. And if they're less angry at you, right, then you have friendlier relationships because not everybody's out to hurt you or not hold the door open for you because they don't like you or something like that.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah. And let's take a minute to talk about projection too, because I think that in terms of I've never had a psychodynamic specialist on my podcast before. And so I I mean, I've talked to a number of psychologists, right? But in terms of your specialty and the mode that you use for practice, I feel like the the idea of projection is super powerful. So can you explore that uh both through the lens of narcissistic relationships and then we can maybe extrapolate into like kids?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, so let me just start off very basic and then we'll build from there based on what questions, okay? So what is projection? So projection just basically means that there's something inside of us, a feeling or a thought that's too painful to tolerate, and it's much more comfortable to get rid of it, eject it, right? And then, but the problem with that is we eject it and then we put it on you, right? Now, sometimes it has great value. Like if I feel weak or powerless, right? Because I had an abusive father, it's much better to see you as weak and powerless and be power, you know, have the power over you because I don't have to then tolerate that painful feeling, right? But the problem with that, unfortunately, is we tend to people don't talk about interjection hardly ever. You probably don't even hear that word common, you know, it's not. So commonly used. But basically, we interject the people in our environment, right? This is the people who are closest to us are the things that we take in. So could you imagine, Lindsay, if everything you're projecting is negative, now you gotta, like let's say it's anger and you can't tolerate your anger, you would be imagining that I'm angry at you, right? But that makes for a very painful environment, right? Now you're taking in these angry, what we call introjects. I don't want to get too technical, but that's why it just becomes so important to work with projection. Again, you hear these stories that sometimes um people who have these narcissistic traits are so worried about being judged. Sometimes they're so worried about being judged that they hold themselves back in life. They hole up in their apartments or in their house. They think that if they go outside, their next door neighbor is going to be critical of them, right? Because they didn't mow their lawn. I don't know, something like that, right? So you could imagine then getting into these projections and starting to explore and helping them own parts of themselves. The world just becomes a more peaceful place. But let me pause because I know I'm kind of throwing out a lot right now. But does this am I beginning at least to answer the questions around projection? Does it seem a little bit clearer?

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, but I love the way you described it, like a piece of yourself that you kind of send off, but then that has ramifications in your relationships. And I I appreciate the example too, because I think as humans, we can have that tendency, but like in the cases that you work with, there's like an extremity to it. Like we're talking about in the extreme, right?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yes, I yeah, I guess it's like anything, it's like on a continuum, right? So we probably all do this to some extent. That's a good point. Just like we all have like narcissistic traits to some extent, right? We all do things for self-serving purposes. It doesn't mean we have NPD, it's just, you know, it feels good sometimes to do something for ourselves, right? It feels good to get paid, right? Our patients come and they pay us. It feels good. There's nothing to feel embarrassed about with that. But yeah, so there are different levels of it. And then depending on the level and how much they project and how hostile that projection, I mean, yes, then it's becomes more serious and then more urgent for us to begin to address that very early on in the treatment.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah. As listeners are hearing this, I also would love to hear what it's like from your perspective to be on the receiving end of projection.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

That's complic, that is complicated business, right? Because unfortunately, this is where many couples get in trouble. They don't they stay at the manifest level because it's so hard, because you have this intense affect coming at you. You're being accused of something. It's so hard to look beyond that and begin to wonder where is this really coming from? Is it coming from me? So for me to be on the accusing end, so when I'm told by a patient that I just helped them and that that felt good, but then they feel upset with me because I only help them for selfish reasons, right? Because I only wanted to feel good. You see what I mean by that? Now, if I don't step back and say to myself, huh, is there something to that? I have to take that seriously. Maybe I was selfish in a way that maybe I was too like over the top or telling him what to do. By the way, I never tell anybody how to live their life. I more likely to explore why they're not doing something. I hardly ever, ever give advice. It's just kind of the psychodynamic approach because I'm no expert on anybody's life, you know. But if I get caught, sometimes I may get caught up on that and I have to question did I accidentally do that? Did I do this? So that's the first step, Lindsay, is for me to really reflect on did is there something here? Is there a grain of truth? And if there is, then I'll say, you know what, you're right. I didn't realize that I did that. And I apologize. You know, just recently I told someone that they need to look for a job. This is someone I'm treating who's not who's living at home. You know, I have patients like this in my practice, you know, that we that's part of narcissism. They retreat sometimes, they can't get out. Remember, I said they fear that they're going to be judged or they'll fail, whatever. And I said, you know, you're right. I stepped into that inadvertently. I need to step out of it now, and we need to look at it together. What happened there? So, anyway, that's a long answer to the question. But the first step is for me to reflect and to think, is this coming from me? And then if it's not, then the next step is to help them begin to see, slowly begin to see how this might be coming from them. And that's a very slow, delicate process with just very, you know, basic exploratory questions initially, because we said it a moment ago, they're getting rid of this for a reason, and I don't want to shove it back in them prematurely, because then they're going to feel attacked by me, which is not really by me, but it's putting something in them that they don't want. Anyway, did that help? Or did I get a little okay?

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, it's so interesting because I think I like the I love the idea of like reflection and then I'm gonna use mindful again, response, right? So, like reflection on whether there's any veracity in what was spoken, and then if so, you know, a mindful response to either reconcile or own or just work through, and then if not, to to take a minute to invite exploration, yeah.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yes, and I love when you keep bringing it back to mindfulness. I love it because I'm always so curious about this and I wonder about the overlap. That's why I appreciated that you did that little exercise with me earlier with containment and mindfulness.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, no, I think there is so much overlap, especially in that part of it. But I think in terms of it's one of the reasons I love mindfulness is I feel like it's like the frontline response, like in a on a day-to-day basis, as we're working through whatever it is we're working through, sometimes with a therapist on a bigger scale, sometimes just in our house with our kids, sometimes at work, so right, like whatever the setting is, sometimes in a relationship, like we may need to call in the experts, right? And then we may be able to get quite a bit done using our mindfulness tools, right? And then when you can tether both, even better, right?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, that's a good point. I didn't think of it that way. I guess, like with containment and mindfulness, it is such a good, valuable, not even just beginning level. I mentioned this anytime those thoughts are coming at you or you're being persecuted, just keep revisiting this over and over. But the professional then may come in at a point where there's something bigger going on that's not in the mind. That's what we call the unconscious. And that's more of the psychodynamic approach. Is we don't always deal with things as at the manifest level. We like to slowly get below and see what's going on under the hood, if I could say it that way. Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Miller:

And I think there's so much, so much to that, because I think that at least in my own experience, mindfulness was a crucial skill for me in being able to tolerate some of those subconscious realizations, right? Whether with a therapist or on my own. Like, oh, this is actually how I'm acting in this situation, or this is how I view my myself. And it's humbling, right? To come to terms with a lot of those.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, just the fact that you could say that is so impressive. You know, this is how I'm acting in this situation, right there. Like you're ahead of like, I don't want to put a percentage on it, but many people can't do that because now you're taking a bit of ownership, right? Yeah. Well, thanks. It's hard fucking. Well, people ask, like, can the narcissist change? That's like a common question, I get, right? Yeah. And the question is always like, who knows? But there are certain signs that that suggest if they could change or not. And that is one of the first signs is can they take any responsibility that they play a role in whatever problems are going on in their life or in their relationships, or that the fact that they were fired from their fourth job now, can they take any responsibility at all? And if the answer is no, then the prognosis for change is very limited.

Lindsay Miller:

That's interesting. Thanks for bringing that up because I was curious about like if someone's listening right now and hearing a lot of tendencies that they're very, very familiar with, you know, and they're maybe noticing for the first time it's just coming, coming up through the subconscious into their consciousness that this is a reality for them in a relationship. What are some of the are there other signs or what are some of the other stresses that might be accompanying that relationship that would help them kind of connect the dots?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Wait, so the question is if something that was maybe not so conscious is beginning to emerge, there's some recognition, right, that they slow down. This is part of like mindfulness, right? They're recognizing something, maybe, right? In a more regulated state. So the question is then something painful, I would imagine. Is that right? Like what something is beginning to emerge that's uncomfortable. And what do you the question is what do you do with that? Or what's the next yeah?

Lindsay Miller:

I guess I was asking like three questions in one. So yeah, of course, first of all, how do you start to process that? Or like what other dots if they're curious and they're like, maybe this is, are there any other dots they could be connecting to help them clarify what they're looking at?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Okay, let's think about that one first. So the first thing you need to do is go get a drink. No, I'm just kidding. That's because that's what people do, by the way, right? Is like you get something to get rid of it as quickly as possible. So one thing you could do actually is if you have a good friend or if you're in therapy, or you have a relationship with somebody, you know, that you feel is, you know, that there's enough trust there, you check in with somebody. You can say, hey, listen, I noticed something about myself, or I've been thinking about something, but I don't know if this is accurate. Do I tend to be a burden? Am I a burden? Like, do you feel that I'm too much? I don't know. I'm just making that part up, Lindsay, because I don't know exactly what's emerging. But one way to do is just to check in with people because you wanted to start to distinguish between what's a persecutory thought. Maybe I'm just being hard on myself and what's a reality. And then if you ask a couple people, right? Or here's another way. I just thought of this one. Let's say you get into an argument with somebody, but you do have this tucked away in your mind, this burgeoning awareness. Then you slow down and instead of getting angry because of what they did to you, you can ask them, instead of why do you behave that way? You could say, Hey, I'm just curious, how come you behaved? How come you got so angry at me? Was there something that I did that got you upset? That's really like if you could just do that, that seems very simple, but that would be monumental because now you're checking in with somebody, but you're checking in with yourself, to your point, Lindsay. Like to see, is this new awareness that I'm having, is it accurate? Did I do something? And the person may say, No, no, it was just me. I had a bad day at work and I was short and I got triggered. Or they may say, Yeah, you didn't realize it, but the way you just spoke to me was so condescending, I felt diminished. And they say, Oh, right, that's what I was just thinking. Or they may say, You're putting a demand on me to take care of something for you. It's like you're taking no responsibility. And then you'll say, Oh, maybe I am a little bit too much. Maybe this is the way it presents itself. So that's one way to do it is to check in. I don't know, what do you think? I'm just thinking out loud what to do with it, but what do you think?

Lindsay Miller:

That makes sense. Yeah. I think that I think that there's so much value, like you just said, in in referencing someone else, right? Because I think sometimes we can get stuck in, like you said, maybe a more negative view of ourselves.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, like a perspiratory thought.

Lindsay Miller:

Yep. Yeah, worry about things that aren't aren't real. But I think being able to reference out and then also being able to just in the moment mindfully approach an interaction. In our house, we like to have redoes. Can I get a redo on that? You know, or so if if we've approached it and we get the feedback that maybe our tone was off or there was some other way we could have said something, asking to kind of repair in that moment can be so supportive.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

I like that. I like that. A redo. I'm going to borrow that. Okay. Can I add one little thing to it? Okay. So to repair, one thing that I find that's very valuable is to add in some recognition that you may have hurt somebody inadvertently, right? So you're not just asking for a redo like to make it magically go away, but there's some recognition. That's the validation, and that's part of containment, that word that I used earlier, right? That the first step is validating. So you'd have to validate that. Oh, maybe what I said was hurtful, or I imagine that made you feel kind of crappy. Can I get a redo on that? I didn't mean, or I don't want you to ever feel that way. So I would just add in maybe that other little piece.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, 100% for sure. And I think I think that's good to define the process more fully because sometimes I just do say redo. But in our house, part of that is the recognition, whether it's in a look, right, or in a conversation where like, I'm sorry, that's not the way I wanted to show up in that moment, or that's not how I want to, you know, that's not the way I want to support you. Or, you know, did I say that in a way that was hurtful? Yes. And getting the feedback and then saying, okay, I'm so sorry. That's not what I wanted to do. Could we could we replay, you know, that moment? Yep. That's wonderful. Talk to me a little bit more about I know we're short on time, so I have so many questions. Let's let's explore for a minute if someone was in narcissistic household or like in a household where there were narcissistic patterns, what might be some of the ramifications for that person as a parent?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Okay.

Lindsay Miller:

Like if you experience that as a child. Oh, yes, I got it. I got it. And then you are now like in your own house parenting, and you're you're maybe like maybe the tendencies haven't come through quite as strong for you, but that's kind of the soup you were simmering in for a long time. What might be some of the patterns or tendencies that you might want to be mindful of as a parent?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, so just again, like a prototypical example, because this is so common in people who have these narcissistic traits, is they grew up with a father who was overly domineering, controlling, and often left them feeling like especially in a father-son relationship, with a sense of powerlessness, because the father himself always needed to feel in control. That doesn't mean there was necessarily physical violence, it doesn't need to be, it's just a constant sort of wearing away at your confidence, right? Yeah. Constantly. So no matter what you do, you're not actually doing it right because the father always knows best, right? So now this kid grows up with a feeling of being quite powerless. So one way to deal with that is to feel quite powerful. And by the way, that's the grandiose sense of self again, the structure that holds the narcissist together. So he has now a son later in life or a daughter. It doesn't even matter. Gender doesn't matter because these things get repeated anyway. He could even do this with his wife. But let's say, for argument's sake, to go back to your example, he has a child. What he does without even knowing it is he's beginning to assert his own dominance over and over. Now the kid starts to act out because he doesn't want to feel powerless. So then he has to assert more power. And it could even get to the point now there's tension in the relationship constantly, and they don't have a good relationship. And sometimes things may even get physical when he's trying to force his child to do something his way, but but always not aware, thinking that my kid is just acting out. Look at the way my kid misbehaves. He's so defiant, he doesn't listen to anything I say, right? So that's one way that it could get replicated later in life, is you inadvertently, without even knowing it, become the father that you had, right? In order to get rid of a feeling of being powerless, because it'll of course it feels much better to be in control, you know.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, yeah. I think again, let's just circling back to the idea of containment here as we close. Like I think that story illustrates so well the importance of that concept, right? Like that gentle awareness. And I think as we work through those types of moments and find ourselves in situations where like we may not have responded to something in a way that's congruent with how we would like to be, or we're starting to just have this burgeoning awareness of how we are, you know, how we are showing up in relationship or with kids that we honor the moment of awareness.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, and that's just to use that word just for a moment, containment, right? So in this example, I'm not sure exactly where you meant the containment was, but what's happening with the father, so there were two levels with the father, he is unable to contain a hurtful, painful feeling. So he gets rid of it, right? He makes somebody else feel powerless. So that's where we come in, right, Lindsay? Through mindfulness, or in my word, containment is that I contain the feeling, and I do it by way of not being upset with this guy, not saying he's doing something bad, but by slowly showing him, right? Of course, of course, you would need to be in control of your son because it becomes so important to you to feel like you have uh like the all the power, but we just don't know why it's so important to have all the power with him. So that's an act of containment. Um I'm validating a need for him to do something, but at the same time, I'm trying to invite his curiosity to think about, huh? Yeah, I wonder where this comes from. Why do I need to do it this way? Clearly, it's not working, it's not giving me the result that I want. I'm not having a good relationship with my son, and that's what I really want.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, yeah. And that it's like that moment, right? It's like, again, because I'm working in moments. It is like the moment when you have made a choice that is not moving you in the direction you want to go. Yes, right? Like I want a strong relationship. You know, in the example we're using here, I want a strong relationship with my son. This action, like when you can even just hold a minute of the dissonance between what you want and how that's playing out currently. I feel like that's the powerful space where like you just plant a tiny little seed of change right there. And you, and then you know, you like you're saying, you get the help that you need, or you work through some of the things that are coming up for you in a safe place, not like taking it out on your right, like we're not projecting on the kid, we're not asking the kid to carry this like generational burden forward. We're like, no, no, no, no, no, that's actually gonna stop here, right? That moment, that mindful moment, which we can then work on, work on in a containment safe space with a therapist.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

I think those are the and just just can I add one thing, yeah. Yeah, so much for bringing it back to moment. I told you earlier that I really appreciate you describing mindfulness as moment, and that's all we can ask for in terms of helping somebody again. Back to the process of change. That's part of the process is to have a moment, and you have to respect and not get upset for anybody who's listening. When you do this with somebody in your life and you have a good moment, anticipate that it will go, it will head south, you know, the next moment. Okay, because that's part of the process, and that's what I see, and that's why therapy takes a while, because there are moments like this, but then they disappear and then they reappear, and we bring we slowly bring those moments to the fore when they're not there and we evoke a memory. Hey, remember when you said you wanted to have, so now we're helping them have more of those moments so we could build on them. But to your point, Lindsay, and I just want to emphasize so nobody gets frustrated because it's not always an upward trajectory of change, you know? Yeah, you got it. I I could stop there. Oh no, I'm no, say that's your thought. No, no, you got it, you got it. You know how this works. It's just like we have moments and then they disappear and then they reappear, and we can't get frustrated by the process because that's all part of the process.

Lindsay Miller:

Yes, yeah. One of my clients this week, we were talking through a scenario that she was in learning to ride a bike. And learning to ride a bike is challenging, and especially when you're little and you fall off a lot, you know? But we were talking about how like small gains aren't negated. So, like taking off one training wheel but not being able to take off both yet, that's still a win, right? Just because you can't ride with both and you backtrack a little bit, that doesn't mean that doesn't mean you don't get to take the success of the one training wheel, right? And I am in a situation where I'm working with that like growth mindset on a you know, on a much different level, right? Riding a bike is very different than rearranging an entire relationship. And also the it's a universal principle, right? Is that like when we're making these gains, they're gonna come with moments where we're like struggling. Yes, yes. As we continue to engage, we over time can see the progress. But in the moment, it's often kind of ugly.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

No, listen, I said it earlier. I love your metaphors. One was with the park, remember Central Park. Now you bring in a bike, something again, very close and dear to my heart. So we can use that metaphor and say, in a way, it is as complicated as having a relationship. Because let's say you want to ride your bike really fast and you want to get stronger on your bike. Same thing, it's not an upward trajectory. There'll be moments where you're training and you're doing well and you're competing and you're winning or you're doing, you know, and then you get sick or you get an injury. You know, the sign of a true athlete, like a true relationship. I'm not even just talking about sport right now, yeah, is to be able to tolerate those moments where the trajectory is no longer up, it could be down, and that's those are the hard moments, but those are the signs of a true relationship athlete, to stay with the metaphor.

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, the thing that I like to reiterate is that you don't get resilience without those moments, right? There's actually not a way to build resilience without them.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

That's right. And let's but let's give the caveat because I'm always anxious about this. Yeah, yeah. We're not suggesting to anybody to stay in a relationship where they're not happy. You see that's 100%. Just in case people are like, oh, Dr. Mazzella said if you're not having a good relationship, right, you should stick with it. No, that's not what I'm saying. We're just talking about to Lindsay's term, building up resiliency, right?

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, no, thank you for clarifying that because I I wouldn't want to send that message either. What I what I do think is that it in my mind that the moment of resilience there is like doing the hard thing of exiting, right? Or doing the hard thing of changing the relationship through therapeutic intervention or seeking a different reality than the one you're currently experiencing, not staying in a space that's not safe.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

And that's not changing, also. That's not changing, right? Yeah. No, thank you for clarifying that. Of course, and thanks for articulating that addendum to it.

Lindsay Miller:

Do you have time for one more question?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, please go for it.

Lindsay Miller:

Okay. Talk to me a little bit about healthy boundaries. Because I think we've we've spent a lot of time kind of identifying these edges that are going to feel sharp and rough and the relationships that by nature have very few boundaries. So, what are some of the things you teach your clients or you work to like kind of educate people on around what a healthy boundary looks like and how to consistently kind of hold those for yourself?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

This is this is a really important question. You know, I've spoken so much on my own podcast about boundaries because I'm not a big fan of them, right? Because people sometimes misunderstand what a boundary is and they think that they have to like push their loved one away if they don't speak to them in the right way. So I like to try to bring people together, but uh I'm sort of rethinking it as I was just listening to your question. If there's any kind of verbal abuse or physical abuse in the relationship, and my now in my perspective, that's an important and a very important time to create a healthy boundary. So just like a really quick example. So I treat people who, you know, sometimes personality disorders, they could be moderately disturbed, I mean, and quite demanding. And there was a fellow who was texting me in between sessions, you know, they get very upset sometimes. That's a separation, by the way. It's a very big sensitivity with people who, you know, with not who have these narcissistic traits. You ended the session, I wasn't done yet, you don't care. What kind of therapist are you? Like a barrage of these text messages, like pages of text messages for days. And finally I had to tell them, listen, you need to knock it off. No more text messaging. If you have something to say, we'll book a second appointment. You know, you come in and we work on this, but you can't treat me this way. So no more text messaging. So there's a boundary. And in my opinion, that's a healthy boundary because back to the word containment. It's a different type of containment, but this guy could not contain his aggressivity. It was spilling out all over the place. And I don't need to take that. I mean, I don't need to be abused in that way. I'm just trying to have a peaceful evening after I'm done with the session. That was a good session. Those some sometimes are the hardest, by the way. The good sessions. We spoke about that in the other episode, accepting something good, right? So that would be a healthy boundary. So for anybody who's listening, you'll have your own tolerance for what's acceptable, right? My tolerance tends to be a little higher. Like, I don't mind, you know, getting, you know, I mean, that's part of my job is I take in a lot of this aggression or powerlessness, made to feel useless. But we, because I know on the other end, I'm going to eventually be able to contain that myself, hold it for them, and give it back in a way that we could work on it. But everybody has to have their own threshold. But an appropriate boundary in this example would be hey, what's going on here? You need to cut that out. I said to him, you need to knock it off. I'm not doing this anymore. Yeah.

Lindsay Miller:

No, thank you for sharing that. And I really would love for everybody to take a minute to listen to the episode we recorded because as Anthony mentioned, we had a really great conversation about this idea of not being able to accept good things. Yes. And I know we have listeners who find themselves in that situation where they really want the good thing mentally, but like when it actually comes to like finding them and they're feeling it, that they're having they're having a hard time letting it come to them fully.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, and we looked at like maybe two or three different reasons why that may be very challenging for again for somebody who has these narcissistic traits. Hey, Lindsay, let me say one more thing that may be helpful to your listeners, which is in terms of a boundary, yeah, this is probably more common, which is well, no, probably people do get these text messages, by the way, or they get sent a bunch of memes these days, you know, like how horrible you are. But another one is a patient came in and I left him in the waiting area for too long because my clock was about 30 seconds off and he was very hurt, but he didn't talk about being hurt that I left him in the waiting area for the appointment. Instead, he told me to change my clock. You know, the clock was off by 30 seconds. So after this perseverated for a few sessions, and he was really surprised that I didn't change my clock. I said to him, Did you really think I was going to change my clock because you told me to? See, that's a boundary. In other words, you're not pushing me around. You see, I'm not going to just do something because you tell me to do it. Instead, we're going to talk about it. So let's talk about what it was like sitting in that waiting room for 30 seconds. What did you imagine? And then we could start getting into how he felt I gave another patient the priority over him and I forgot about him. But we couldn't do that until I told him, What, you think I'm going to because he was holding out hope that he could control me. And if he could control me, we wouldn't have to deal. We'd never have to talk about those other painful feelings. What?

Lindsay Miller:

Yeah, with the discomfort that he was feeling around it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's such a good example. Thank you. Sure. Well, this has been so insightful for me. Thank you so much for your perspective and for all of the wisdom that you shared today with our listeners.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

I really thank you. Thank you for very thoughtful questions. I really appreciate it. And I appreciate you giving me the time. And I'm really excited to hear that I was the first psychodynamic psychotherapist on the show.

Lindsay Miller:

So yes, 100%. Can you share with our listeners where they can find you?

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Yeah, I mean, it's really simple. It's just everything's on my website. So if you want to look at my pod, listen to the podcast on my video channel, all of that is at Dr. Mazzella. It's just D-R. And then my last name, M-A-Z-Z-E-L-L-A.com. And maybe Lindsay, if you could drop it in the show notes, that'd be wonderful for people who don't have paper and pen handy. Do people still use paper and pen? I don't even know if they're I do.

Lindsay Miller:

I mean, yeah, good for you, me too. Thank you again for your time.

Dr. Anthony Mazzella:

Thank you, Lindsay. Bye.

Lindsay Miller:

Bye. Thanks for listening to the Stress Nanny. If you found today's episode helpful, be sure to share it with a friend who could use a little extra calm in their week. And if you have a minute, I'd love for you to leave a review. It helps other parents find the show and join us on this journey. For more tools and support, head over to www.thestressnanny.com. Remember, you don't have to do stress alone. Together we can raise kids who know how to navigate life with confidence and ease. Until next time, take a deep breath and give yourself some grace.